Lit, Pi, "sunshine"

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52FM · #1 Post by **52FM** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:33 am

Saw both Pi and Eternal Sunshine. Thanks for the suggestions, Ith.

All three give me a frame of reference for working on my relationship with my wife. It's interesting in a theorectical sense - probably not real interesting in a practical sense. In short - we all have emotional sides and logical sides. Usually we have these in balance. Different people are "dominate" in one side or another in varying degrees. Significant emotional events like death or illness will tip that balance - but it usually goes back to whatever is the norm for that person.

Some people (like Max) are consumed by one side (obviously the logic side for him) to a very unhealthy extent. (This was not true of John Nash - he was flat out schizophrenic). But are there people for whom the scales shift throughout their life? Even violently? Going thorugh years and years of being say 75% logical, only to one day BAM! become 75% emotional? I would think it would be a horrible adjustment for anyone close to that person to go through. Especially if say the logic side was the more prevalent; or if that's the side they fell in love with. Or if the person really was "clumsy" at the being emotional and clearly "better" at being logical.

Interesting, to me at least.

I65 · #2 Post by **I65** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:32 am

Glad you enjoyed them. Now if you haven't seen it yet, you just need to watch Magnolia, and your set

One of the things that I love about the message boards, and my internet friends is that they get Eternal Sunshine. None of my real life friends that I have had seen Eternal Sunshine (or LIT and Magnolia for that matter) got or enjoyed the films. Well, my husband got them, he just didn't care about them much. The rest think I am flat out bizarre for liking these movies so much. They seem to like movies where everything is spoonfed to them. I know that sounds condescending saying it, and I don't mean to be. I do appreciate them for who they are, I just don't share these type of movies with them anymore.

Your thoughts on someone switching the balance of logical to emotional is interesting. I wonder if that switch came recently to someone close to you?

I can see the switch from logical to emotional happening, and was wondering if it doesn't happen with most logical people as they grow older. The logical side of you drives you during your "working years", but as you get older, your priorities begin to shift, and the emotional side of you begins to weigh in more heavily.

But for those that are dominated by their emotional, dare I say artistic side, is such a shift to being more logical possible? As I type this, I think more of the emotional side being repressed by the logical side, then suddenly being allowed to come through, and weigh in more heavily. I suppose that people could also allow their emotional side to repress their logic.l..but for me it just doesn't seem as easy or natural for that change to take place.

I think we need a case study to look into this in more depth. Any volunteers?

52FM · #3 Post by **52FM** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:53 am

"I think we need a case study to look into this in more depth. Any volunteers?"

I seem to have involuntarly volunteered!

I've seen more movies in the past few days then I used to see in a year. I finally saw Pulp Fiction. (I've been told by co-workers that I was the last living person to have not seen it, and so I felt obligated to close out that list.)

Lest anyone think that I apply every movie I see to my own life - I saw no parrallels at all to me and Pulp Fiction.

I saw "Sunshine" with my younger son also. This time when he asked me what I thought of it, I just said "I liked it". He seemed pleased, compared to my response about Pi.

52FM · #4 Post by **52FM** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:07 am

One more quick thought on our "case study": What about people who "violently" shift from logic, to emotion, then back, then back again, at various points in their life? Not on a regular basis, but say 3-4 times in say a 20-30 year period? If one is normally dominant, how could the other take over so strongly? And can it be controlled or repressed. It could be repressed artificially of course (like Max in Pi - but more traditionally I guess through medication).

silvermoon · #5 Post by **silvermoon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:30 pm

i havnt seen the film Pi yet, so i cannot reference that, but i think it depends on what you mean by the term 'logic'. obviously the emotional side is the direction of your own impulses, my take on the logical side is it is the aspect of your subconcious that conforms to society's view of what is right. i dont think there is such thing as an objective right and wrong, so we look to people in authority to decide for us, in which case bureaucracy takes over. i see the logical side as being that which stifles the emotional side, should we let it, and this depends on the person's personality (how willing he is to conform, or not, to society, and the goodwill of people in general) and the influence of peers and authorities on that person, and also on a personal level that person's attitude towards life (taking risks in hope of happiness, or not, depends on the strength of the logical side in proportion to the emotional side). in certain cases eg. those who are autistic, or those who are medicated (speaking from my own knowledge only, so pls correct me if i am wrong) might possess a logical side that completely dominates the emotional, artificial or not, but i think generally it is a struggle between the two, to which degree it depends on the individual. i think the emotional side may be triggered by extreme events etc that allows it to grow, but the logical side is a rigid structure ingrained within us largely by external forces.
i think it depends on the environment u live in shaping your personality, which develops both sides in a stable manner. an emotional shock may trigger that side to grow in strength in the short term, but i think generally it will return itself to equilibrium. i havnt lived long enough to experience anything drastic myself, so that is probably wrong, but so far that is my perspective

silvermoon · #6 Post by **silvermoon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:34 pm

ok, put simply, i think we learn what is logical, but the emotional side is purely us and our desires. how we learn it and how responsive we are to it determines how strong the logical side is in proportion to the emotional side. as babies, we do not think logically of consequences, but as we get older, we learn more and more of what will hurt us, and adjust accordingly

I65 · #7 Post by **I65** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:50 pm

"my take on the logical side is it is the aspect of your subconcious that conforms to society's view of what is right"

I thought of it as more of a "analytical" or "scientific" side. Looking at it more like a left brain, right brain thing I guess.

52FM · #8 Post by **52FM** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:10 pm

It is a left brain / right brain thing. Normally (whatever that means) someone has a dominant side, though someone can be nearly balanced too. Which is why I'm wondering if people can have two "dominant" sides that take turns every now and then.

Congruous · #9 Post by **Congruous** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:14 pm

What is "Pi?"

silvermoon · #10 Post by **silvermoon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:36 pm

yup, i would agree it is a left/right brain thing. but i think there must be a framework of rules and concepts of right and wrong/good and bad for analysis to take place. for example, science itself concerns finding the discrete rules that govern our universe and its existence. within the boundaries of these rules analysis can take place. however, concerning the rules that govern our own lives, what i believe to be right and wrong/good or bad for me is an emotional choice. my thoughts and beliefs are my truth. if at any moment i feel i should act in a particular manner, or perform an action, then it is the right choice for me (even if it proves to be painful, which teaches the logical side). but you learn what hurts you, so that next time when you analyse a similar situation you know what might be 'best' for you to do, and logic guides you (or not, in which case you havnt learnt from your mistakes). perhaps what is best for you (logically speaking) is what hurts you least, or brings you greatest happiness in the long run (a healthy relationship with someone, a steady job).

however, i think that is an idealistic view. as much as i want to believe that the decisions i make are my own, i am largely influenced by those around me as well. when i make a decision regarding my future (generally engaging my logical side), it is based on a view of a future that is shaped by other peoples' opinions of what it should be eg. a 9-5 job, only engaging in serious relationships with girls after university etc. this is where my logical side is guiding me, but it goes against my own impulses. i think the logical side of a person is more than just his own ideas of what is good for him, but incorporates other peoples' opinions as well.

i realise what i am saying is tangential to the initial discussion, but it bothers me that the emotional and logical sides appear to blur at a point

silvermoon · #11 Post by **silvermoon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:43 pm

Pi is a film by darren aronofsky, director of requiem for a dream. i havnt seen it yet tho, so if you want to know what it is about i'm not the person to ask. but i've heard it is very good, and obviously ithildriel and 52FM have good taste in movies (eternal sunshine and magnolia are great movies as well), so it seems it is definitely worth checking out

52FM · #12 Post by **52FM** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:45 pm

3.14159....

The ratio of the circumference of every circle to its diameter.

Also, it's a (strange but in my mind very good) movie about a mathematician who tries to find a formula / algorithm to use for predicting the stock market; what he stumbles on has another important use. All in all, he becomes obsessed until...

Ebert said it this way (paraphrasing): as you seem to get closer and closer to discovering something that really doesn't exist, it drives you mad.

silvermoon · #13 Post by **silvermoon** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:35 pm

another thing...how would one judge the analytical and emotional views of an extreme individual eg. a terrorist? how much of what they believe is ingrained, or conditioned? does that count as the emotional side overwhelming the logical, or does the fact they probably believe in what they are doing count as their own form of logic? obviously their views differ wildly from our own, so how does one go about analysing their mindset? just wondering.

tbh, i'm waiting for exam results 2mrw, am stressed out and can't tell anything apart atm, so pls feel free to just disregard everything i say. stretching back several days

I65 · #14 Post by **I65** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:02 pm

PI was definitely and interesting movie, not one that I would necessarily recommend. It was an interesting watch, but I wouldn't go out of my way to own it or watch it again (by the way I didn't care for Requiem for a Dream at all). When I found out that 52 was a stat/mathematician, I asked because as I watched it I wondered how a mathematician would feel about the movie.

I'm pretty busy at work right now, so I'll comment more on the rest of this thread when I can dedicate the time it deserves.

You Make it Easy · #15 Post by **You Make it Easy** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:30 pm

I only watched Pi because it came with Requiem for a Dream, but it was a very interesting movie to me, I actually liked the black and white perspective that Aronofsky was showing. Requiem for a Dream is one of my fav movies, Just curious ITH what didnt you like about it?

I65 · #16 Post by **I65** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:55 pm

I also loved that PI was done in b&w. It just gave it an authentic feel, and mirrored Max's b&w way of looking at the world.

I'll start a thread in the movie section on Requiem, I don't want to skew this one anymore than I probably already have.

I65 · #17 Post by **I65** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:20 pm

So if we look at this as a left brain / right brain type of thing, let me see how much of my biology etc I can remember from college and start there. Starting with a joke I heard once from a lefty....

"Left handed people are the only ones in their right mind"

Right handed people use their left brain more than their right brain, so they tend to be more analytical. Left handed people use their right brain more which houses the more creative, emotional side. (I'm right handed by the way, which always bothered me...hehe guess we always want to be what we are not). Most everyone has some use of their non-dominant hand in varying degrees with the extreme being one who is ambidextrious. Likewise we use the other side of our brains in varying degrees as well. In fact some people actually do some things better with their non dominant hand than their dominant one. So I guess if certain parts of the non-dominant side of your brain can take over doing manual tasks, I would deduce that likewise certain circumstances would trigger the non dominant side of your brain during your thought processes.

From 52FM "It is a left brain / right brain thing. Normally (whatever that means) someone has a dominant side, though someone can be nearly balanced too. Which is why I'm wondering if people can have two "dominant" sides that take turns every now and then."

My guess on this question would be that those who are closer to ambidextrious, would have a brain that most likely evokes the scenario that you give here, where the halves of the brain "take turns" being dominant. Those that are to the extreme of left or right "braindedness" (lol don't know if I just made up that word but I like it) I think would have a difficult time in moving from one to the other. For some reason the movie Kinsey keeps coming to my mind. ProK seemed to use his logical side in all aspects of his life, including love and sex. Such onesided thinking would be difficult, if not impossible, to change.

"One more quick thought on our "case study": What about people who "violently" shift from logic, to emotion, then back, then back again, at various points in their life? Not on a regular basis, but say 3-4 times in say a 20-30 year period? If one is normally dominant, how could the other take over so strongly? And can it be controlled or repressed."

Without actual observation of the behavior of our "case study" this is hard to analyze. Like I said in a prior post I think that the for someone that is logical, to allow the emotional side to dominate would be easier than the other way around, so I am going to start with the assumption that our case subject is fairly close to middle of the road in regards to brain sidedness, but the logical side tends to be a bit stronger. My questions here would be

When these violent shifts occur, what triggers them? Is it a traumatic experience, or is it more of a one day you wake up and you see the world through different "eyes" so to speak?

When this shift from logical to emotional occurs, how long does the emotional side dominate? For sake of ease lets, say that these shifts have occurred 4 times over 20 years. When the shift goes from logical to emotional, does the emotional side last a short period of time, or does it seem to carry over for many years? Are we looking at 5 years of logical reign, followed by 6 months of emotional reign, then say 10 years of logical reign, followed by a year or two of emotional? What is the ratio of logical to emotional domination during this time period?

Without the answers to this question, my hypothesis would be that this "case study" had a life altering experience that put into question his logical way of thinking. He decides to "allow" his emotional side to dominate for some period of time, which it does. Because this person is somewhat middle of the road, and not almost exclusively dominated by one side (such as Kinsey was) this type of thinking is within his realm of capability, but is a bit unnatural and "forced". After a period of time, it eventually becomes easier to go back to the more normal (for him) logical way of approaching the world. Perhaps down the road another incident occurs that brings out that emotional side of him, and he again allows it to dominate.

I guess in typing all of this out, without facts and concrete situations to analyze on our "case study" I would say that it isn't so much the brain itself moving back and forth, but the conscious decision of the subject to nurture that nondominant side of himself during certain periods.

This was quite fun waxing poetic on this subject. Very interesting and thought prvoking thread you started here 52...

silvermoon · #18 Post by **silvermoon** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:09 am

well said

Congruous · #19 Post by **Congruous** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:14 pm

I used to think I was ambidextrous. I do everything left-handed except sports. (God forbid I try to brush my teeth right-handed...it would be a bloodbath.) I can throw, kick, and play tennis on either side, but in sports I use the right side. Still, I think the reason I'm dominant right-handed is that I copied the other kids when I was little. Now I consider myself as a lefthander who learned sports skills from right-handed people.

I65 · #20 Post by **I65** » Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:34 pm

I wonder if they still do that? Us elders on the board remember those times when only right was right, and people tried to force their children to be right handed. (Doesn't sound like your parents did, just your coaches).