Power of prayer vs. futility of prayer

[52FM]

SOmething that happened today got me thinking. My oldest son got the job he interviewed for - so he'll be working in his field while he (hopefully) gets into grad school.

Many of our friends said (with all seriousness) that they prayed he would get the job. I didn't - although I am religious, I don't beleive God makes things happen. I do beleive he gives us the capacity to make things happen. I also beleive in a different concept of the "Holy Spirit" than I was taught in church. I beleive we carry the spirit or essence of those we need who are gone, and that guides us. That can include God (or a God), but again - we do the work, and this spirit (or Spirit) guides us.

Now I "pray" to that spirit (or Spirit) to guide me (for example - when I was taking 6 hour exams for a certification, I didn't pray for answers or intelligece (I already had that gift) - I prayed for calm, peace etc so I would be abel to recall what I learned. Likewise - I prayed for my son to have the calm he needed to do well in the interview.

So whenever life throws some obsticle in the way of someone I know and care about, I often pray not that God resolves the matter, but I pray for the person to be able to use the strength or abilites to handle the matter the way he or she is capable. Powerful or futile, Ithat's what I find myself doing at certain times.

[I65]

Beautifully put. I am not a religious person per say. I believe in "God" but not religion, if that makes any sense.

I don't pray often, but when I do, I usually pray for guidance and strength to do the "right thing". I also don't normally pray for the outcome I want...so to speak.

[Just Like Honey...]

I believe in "God" but not religion, if that makes any sense.

That pretty much sums up my religious beliefs as well.

[jm]

(deleted)

[Autumn Child]

ive heard countless people say "the prayers worked, but only later did I see that god gave me what not what I wanted, but what I needed".

these people say that when they were given what they really needed, it was hope etc. , which suggests to me that there is no godly involvement at all - just the hope and strength that comes from believing that something is there to guide you/help you.

it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief.

[jm]

"[quote:711d8d7e77="Autumn Child"]it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief. [/quote:711d8d7e77]
I couldn't agree with that -- I don't think it's good at all. But I won't get into that without an invitation "

[Autumn Child]

it is good that prayer and the belief in a god can help people, but i think that in no way does this prove the existence of god, just the hope that someone gets from belief.

I couldn't agree with that -- I don't think it's good at all. But I won't get into that without an invitation

surely if a false belief gives someone hope, then theres nothing wrong with that?

unless they're one of these christian activists.
then they should be shot.

[You Make it Easy]

People who talk to an "imaginary being" need help. They call kids who have imaginary friends "a problem", what is with everyone praying to something that does not exist.

Quite frankly how I feel about prayer and the fact that there is no "god".

[52FM]

You Make It Easy:
I was afraid this thread mght trigger stronger statements than we typically get on this board; I always liked the overall gentleness of this board vs say IMDb. But I recognize there can be strong sentiments regarding this type of topic.

I posted this in a moment of personal reflection regarding my experience with my son and realizing it also fit with another experience that was fresh on my mind. I respect your opinion - just wish it was stated in less of an insulting tone. I'm one of those by your definition that needs "help".

[jm]

"[quote:bfb6042271="Autumn Child"]surely if a false belief gives someone hope, then theres nothing wrong with that?[/quote:bfb6042271]
I hope that was said in jest! "

[jm]

"[quote:299f75b46f="You Make it Easy"]People who talk to an "imaginary being" need help. They call kids who have imaginary friends "a problem", what is with everyone praying to something that does not exist.[/quote:299f75b46f]
There's a young man at work who believes there are devils flying about in the air, influencing us. A nice guy without many friends."

[Just Like Honey...]

I respect your opinion - just wish it was stated in less of an insulting tone. I'm one of those by your definition that needs "help".

Same. I'm not one to condemn people for being atheists, and I'm not condemned for being a Christian (nor do I feel condemned now).
I'm also strongly opposed to pushing religious beliefs on others (assuming theres no jehova's witnesses present).

People who talk to an "imaginary being" need help. They call kids who have imaginary friends "a problem", what is with everyone praying to something that does not exist.

Quite frankly how I feel about prayer and the fact that there is no "god".

I posted on this topic to reflect my belief that there is a God, as opposed to any concrete knowledge I might have. I get turned off when people refer to the subject as 'there is a God' or 'there's no God', since no one can ever be sure of their theories, believers and non believers alike.

[Just Like Honey...]

There's a young man at work who believes there are devils flying about in the air, influencing us. A nice guy without many friends.

Now I don't know if it's a situational thing or not, but I'm pretty open about my religious beliefs, and I'm not going through a shortage of friends. Hard to tell if that's a direct reference to one's belief in an actual God or not, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

I'm not sure if he has no friends because the 'default' belief for most people has become 'no God', as opposed to 'yes, there is a God' (I'm assuming in the world as a whole, there are at least as many believers as there are non-believers), but I don't think anyone is going to change their beliefs to conform to any kind of sociological 'norm'.

[I65]

You Make It Easy:
I respect your opinion - just wish it was stated in less of an insulting tone. I'm one of those by your definition that needs "help".

I have to agree with 52M here. There really is no reason to say that people who believe in God need help. The existance of God or Supreme being cannot really be proved or disproved.

I started to make a generalization here, but realized I shouldn't so I will say that I believe in God based on personal experiences that I have had. I went to church for a short time when I was younger (maybe a couple years), and went to a few services when I was older, but never really found a church that I "fit" with. So some may believe in God just because that is what they are taught, but for me, it happened on a personal level.

My husband is an athiest, so God is not something that we discuss. To me, he is a good person, and that is enough. He treats people with respect, and tries not to be judgemental. He is a caring, giving, loving human being. I know many Christians who go to church regularly, and believe that because of that they are "saved" and they can treat their fellow human beings shabbily. To me, those people "talk the talk" while my husband "walks the walk".

[You Make it Easy]

I'm sorry my statements were a out of line for this topic. The only problem I have with christians (being a former hardcore christian for 4 years) is all the hypocrisy. Sometimes I feel like going into a church listen to a serman and start disagreeing, I think I want to try and show people that religion has destroyed a lot. My thought patterns are not "normal" if the things I say offend you or others it shouldnt just opinions.

[52FM]

Your points are certainly very valid and I agree with all of them at some level. I, like others I suspect, make a distinction between organized religion and belief of God. I'm Catholic, and I cannot describe the disgust I have over the child molestations that went covered up for so many years. We stopped giving to our church a while ago, becuase we knew the money in some way was going to legal defenses for criminal clergy and their criminal superiors who were just as guilty by hiding the crimes.

However - I do believe that prayer helps, but maybe not as mysteriously as it is billed sometime. For example, it probably works better if the person knows that they are being prayed for. That way, they may find comfort or strenghth in knowing that someone is pulling for them.

[Just Like Honey...]

I'm a former decrepit catholic. I stopped going to church when I was still young because, well there is some hypocrisy (credit to You Make It Easy), but I don't believe it's unique to catholicism. What really gets to me is the excessive symbolism of the whole thing. Maybe it's just the generation gap but, to me, eating 'blessed' bread and wine, worshipping and adorning statues, and just all of the frills (you have to kneel to pray, or its disrespectful, etc) really creep me out and remind me of some kind of cult.

I continue to believen in the Bible and its techings, and in Christianity, but for reasons mentioned, I don't go to church. I have no problem with organized religion, but some of them just creep me out.

[52FM]

Talking about it being "cult-like": when I was in HS in the 60s it was considered a "progressive" thing that we would have the occassional "guitar-Mass", where we would forgoe the typical organ for music and have a couple guitars playing. I often played for our church and also for Masses in HS (I went to a small Catholic HS).

Anyway, one of the songs that was used was called "Sons of God"; it was a pretty upbeat, folksy tune, but one of the versus always struck me strange:

"Sons of God
Hear His Holy Word
Gather Round
The Table of the Lord
Eat His Body, Drink His Blood
And We'll Sing a Song of Love..."

For anyone who didn't understand Catholic communion, that second to last line is downright creepy and morbid - whenever I sang it I felt like breaking out laughing.

[adrien950]

I am a Christian who was brought up Catholic. As a child I didn't understand the Catholic Religion. To me it just seemed like a bunch of rules, lighting candles, worshipping statues, praying to saints,etc. Because of that, as a teen, I chose to believe in nothing and became an atheist. After years of contemplation , I believe in God wholeheartedly and choose to follow his teachings through the Bible. I attend church not because I'm "supposed" to,but because I want to. I don't knock anyone for their beliefs whether it's an agnostic point of view, or Catholic,or Mormon or Buddha or whatever. That's the greatness of our lives..our beliefs. We have a choice.I choose to believe in God the creator.

Also, the act of Communion is a symbolic act and not to be taken literally. In the Bible during the last supper before Jesus Christ was to be captured and killed,He told His diciples that the bread represented His body that was broken for them(And us) and that whenever they eat it to remember Him. And the wine represented His blood that was spilled for them(And us) and that when we drink it to remember Him.

[Autumn Child]

surely if a false belief gives someone hope, then theres nothing wrong with that?

I hope that was said in jest!

i cant see how a belief that does not affect peoples lives for the worse, but gives them strength and hope, can be a bad thing.

im quite against the effect some organised religions have on society and people (notably Roman Catholicism), but if someone, say, believed in a god and tried to live a good life (but did not follow a religion per-say), and if that belief is how they get their 'purpose in life' and helps them to live life by their morals - i think thats good for them - no harm done.

are you considering this topic properly, or are you just setting out to rubbish peoples beliefs with no valid reason and argument?